Mark Maron: Alright. Let's do this. How are you folks? It's me, Mark. Mark Maron. This is WTF, My podcast. Welcome to it. I I I'm excited. I'm nervous. Try not to freak out. I feel a little hazy in the mind, didn't sleep great because the president of the United States is on the show today. He's coming over. It's not here now. The but Secret Service people just keep looking in here, like, who who am I talking to? Like, maybe maybe the president slipped by The fifty or sixty people. Like, who's he who's he talking to in the garage? Me. Myself. It's been crazy. I can't I can't really understand how this is happening. We we've we've known this was gonna happen for a little while, and we thought it would be a fun idea, a great thing, an honor To have the president stop by on this trip to, to Los Angeles, I'm now formulating, you know, how how am I gonna talk to him like I talk to him. I'm a little nervous because he's the president, and I've got to I've got to have a person in here. But that on top of the fact that, you know, they just swept my house with a dog. I had to, hide my cats in the bedroom. They had to sweep that separately. Was a lot of panic. I was in, as you know, in Hawaii, while a lot of this was going on. My producer, Brendan McDonald, was dealing with a lot of, Pre prep. But today, they've tented my entire driveway. I'm told there will be a sniper on the roof. There's something in here That looks like a, an armed yoga mat I didn't ask too many questions about. There are secret service everywhere. There's people, Three or four people, maybe five or six people out there with headphones on listening to this. Again, the entire walk from the street, that section of the street where the The motorcade's gonna come up. It's tented. Oh, see? Look at that. I should turn that off, right, before the president gets I thought I had that off. Anyways, so there's a large tent. All my neighbors they've closed down the entire neighborhood, so there's I think people are excited but also annoyed at me. But there's people that have, made signs welcoming the president, and they're they're sitting in my neighbor's yard. I've got a bunch of scattered notes here. I have I put a lot of pressure on myself about this kind of thing. I I I wanna connect, but I don't wanna do a policy discussion. I don't wanna Do a a an interview that's been done before. I'd like to connect with him as a person. I gotta hope that happens And happens with me not thinking that there's a LAPD all along the periphery of my house. There's a sniper on my neighbor's roof. There's LAPD on the street. There's secret service everywhere. The entire street is is, Empty, and, it's just gonna be me and president Barack Obama in my garage. And I know that he was at Tyler Perry's last night, so, like, I'm a little you know? I mean, I like my house, but I imagine it's gonna be it's gonna be different. It's cozy. It's cozy. I know he's at Chuck Lorre's and, you know, they were doing a different thing, and there's a lot of people. Just give me me and him in here. I've cleaned up a little bit. I've moved the piles into the house. Oh, man. Alright. Well, so that's what's happening. The next time you hear me, I'll be talking to the president of the United States In my garage. It's crazy. It's crazy. Alright. I'm about to cry. Am I in the orange chair? Orange chair For you, mister president Damn it. Damn it. Who's staying in the room? We're doing pictures. Oh, my gosh. Barack Obama: This is pretty cool. Mark Maron: This is the place. This is where it happens. I like Barack Obama: this, man. Mark Maron: You do? Barack Obama: I do. Mark Maron: It's my whole life. Everything. Barack Obama: But you're like you're you're like a big cheese now, man. You can't pretend like you're just some. Mark Maron: What do you mean? Can I go on pretending? You can't Barack Obama: pretend like you're some Mark Maron: Well, then Barack Obama: little guy in the garage. Mark Maron: Well, should I move? You're Barack Obama: not big time. Mark Maron: Should I move? Barack Obama: No. You you know, this this Partly because of the, the Yeah. The knickknacks around here, man. Mark Maron: Sure. It's the magic box. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff going on in here. I was about to Barack Obama: You got the Gimme Shelter Sure, man. Mark Maron: I got a I got, like, yeah, I got a weird collection of the things. Barack Obama: You got some some, some drawings and pictures that we can't really discuss. Right. Mark Maron: I got, yeah, I got pictures over there. I got Dennis Hopper. I got, there's Muddy Waters. There's, there's, I got Yeah. Just stuff. Barack Obama: A lot of pictures of yourself. I mean, it's a little narcissistic. Mark Maron: Well, I mean, you know, people send them to me, and I, you know, I I I don't know that that I really notice it, that they're all pictures of me. Maybe it's just comforting. The, that's an old New Yorker review of a one man show I did. There's the, yeah. Great. Well, thanks, man. Barack Obama: Bring bring back good memories every time you you walk in here. Well, you Kinda remember. Mark Maron: Well, do do you have that thing where, like, there's a lot of good memories, but then sometimes I'm like, do I need thing anymore? Did there's a book I didn't read that I've held on to for thirty years. Do I do I need to keep that? Barack Obama: You never know when, when you when you're gonna need Yeah. Mark Maron: Go. Alright? Yeah. Gotta read that book I couldn't understand twenty years ago. Barack Obama: It could be the book you need in five years. Mark Maron: Well, you used to live around here. Barack Obama: I did. Yeah? I was explaining to folks, Pasadena. These are my old haunts, man. Mark Maron: And and do you how close is that in your memory? Does it come right back? Or Barack Obama: Absolutely. Yeah. Through somewhat of a haze. I mean, it was Uh-huh. College. So Mark Maron: How old were you? Like, twenty. Right? Nineteen? Barack Obama: I was nineteen. And you live right down the street. I've been Right down the street. Mark Maron: And it it is how far away from you are you from that guy now? I mean, do you can you lock into that? Can you find that in yourself? Barack Obama: The truth is I'm pretty much the same guy in a lot of ways. Mark Maron: Yeah? Barack Obama: Yeah. I I started keeping a journal when I was around twenty. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: And, you know, kept it up until I went to law school. Yeah. So for about seven years. Sometimes I go back and I read this stuff, and I'm I'm still the same guy. Yeah. Which is good. Mark Maron: Emotionally or not obviously, not emotionally. But I mean, there's moments where you can sort of lock in. Like, what parts of your journal are you like, Like, are there still struggles that you were having then that you have now? Barack Obama: Well, that's where stuff's changed in Mark Maron: the Barack Obama: sense that stuff that was Bugging you. By the time you're fifty three, either you worked it out or you just forgiven yourself and you've said, look, this is who I am. Mark Maron: Oh, I gotta write that down. Right? So I can just forgive myself? Barack Obama: Well, you know, assuming that, well, you're you're not hurting anybody. No. But you know what I mean? I think that you at that age, you're still trying to figure out Right. Who are you? How do I live? What's my code? Right. What's important to me? What's not important to me? And you're sorting through all kinds of Contradictions and Yeah. And, you know, by the time you get to into your fifties, hopefully a lot of those have been resolved. You've come to terms and come to peace with some stuff. And then, some stuff you've just said, well, you know what? That that's just who I am. I the, I've got some flaws. I've got some strengths, and, That's okay. Well, what was the what do you Mark Maron: think the hardest thing for you to come to peace with was? Because, I mean, it's a I I've read, your work. You know, I know the the sort of struggles that you were going through, you know, as a young man Right. That were ongoing. Right. So, you know, what's the difference Between being at peace and and resolving a struggle, and what were those struggles for you from day one? I mean Well, Barack Obama: when I was here in Pasadena Yeah. And I had just come From Hawaii, from high school. So some of it's just the same stuff that any kid when they're off to college you're going through. Right? Mark Maron: Yeah. Time to break out. Barack Obama: You're you're you're breaking out. Yeah. You're trying to figure out how do I act right. Yeah. Yeah. How much fun should I have versus how much work? Yeah. What's my work about? Because now nobody's Telling you Mark Maron: Right. Barack Obama: What you have to do. Mark Maron: Did you have a vision though? Barack Obama: Did you did you have work that you wanted to do? By by my sophomore year, I did. And that's why I transferred. Mean, part part of me transferring from Occidental College, which is where I was going to school when I was living in Pasadena once. Yeah. After After a couple years in college, I started realizing that there were some things that were important to me. Having an impact on social justice issues, having, you know, having something to say about poverty or or race or or things like that. Mark Maron: What sparked that, though? Yeah. I mean, because, like, it seems to me, like, you your identity, your personal identity, Sort of coincided almost exactly with your your political identity. Barack Obama: Well, these are the contradictions I had to work out. So I, you know, My mother, was the biggest influence of my life and this wonderful woman. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: But I am raised without a dad, an African American, but not Mark Maron: Right. Yeah. Barack Obama: Grounded in A place with a lot of African American culture. And so I'm trying to figure out, alright, I'm seen and and viewed and understood as a Black men in America. Right. What does that mean? Yeah. I'm absorbing all kinds of stereotypes and ideas from society. Like Richard Pryor. Mark Maron: Got a box Sit Barack Obama: right there. Like Richard Pryor or Shaft drummer. Right? And and and so I'm I'm trying on a whole bunch of Outfits, right? Sure. Here here's how I should act. You know, here here's how it's here's what it means to be cool. Yeah. Here's what it means to be man. You know Mark Maron: when you start smoking? Barack Obama: Yeah. Exactly. Mark Maron: Right? We do. Yeah. You know, Barack Obama: you start smoking, you start drinking coffee. That was a good shirt. Right. You got a leather jacket. Mark Maron: Yeah. And then you fight that for the Barack Obama: rest of Mark Maron: your life. Exactly. The worst. Barack Obama: And And and then at a certain point, right around twenty, right right around my sophomore year, I started figuring out that You know, a lot of the ideas that I had taken on about being a rebel or being a tough guy Yeah. Or Being cool were really, not me. They were just things that I was trying on Sure. Because I was insecure I was a kid. Right. And and that's, that's an important moment in my life, although also a scary one because then you start realizing, well, I actually have to figure out what I really do believe, and what is important, and who, who am I really. And a lot of that revolved around issues of race, and Being able to say that I don't have to be one way to be both an African American, But also somebody who affirms, the white side of my family. Right. I don't have to push back From the love and and values that my mom instilled in me. Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: Did you fight at all For a while? You know, she and I never fought. Right. Okay. Because she, you know, she was as sweet as could be. And she had a good Sarcastic sense of humor, and she kinda put up with my adolescent rebellion. She's very progressive person. She was. She was, I always call her she was the last of the Great secular humanist. Oh, yeah. She she was, you know, she thought all religions had something to Say, and Right. She thought all cultures were fascinating. And So Mark Maron: you weren't you weren't brought up with that. With the religion thing really at all. Barack Obama: Yeah. No. I mean, we'd go to, church for Easter sometimes. Mark Maron: Uh-huh. Yeah. Barack Obama: But we had we had a Shinto temple across the street from the apartment where we were living. And, Yeah. When I was in Indonesia Yeah. That's a Muslim country. So we got mosques. And, but but she instilled in me these core values that for a while I thought were corny. Yeah. And then right around twenty, you start realizing, you know, honesty, kindness, hard work, responsibility, looking after other people, they're actually pretty good values. Yeah. They're homespun. You know, they're, you know, they're they're, they come out of, my Kansas roots. But they're the things that ultimately ended up being most important to me and and how I tried Mark Maron: to build my life. Well, you know, I wanna you know, before, like, I I feel like we jumped right in the conversation, which is good. Barack Obama: It was quick. Mark Maron: And, I am, I'm honored that you came. And, and and, it's It's an amazing, privilege for me to talk to you. Barack Obama: Listen, I the I'm a big fan and, you know, I I love conversations like this because, If if I thought to myself that, when I was in college that I'd be in a garage Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: A couple miles Away from where I was living, doing an interview Mark Maron: As president. Barack Obama: As president with a comedian. Mark Maron: That's right. Barack Obama: I think that's a pretty hard scenario to, Couldn't imagine it. It's not possible to imagine. No. That it is not nobody Mark Maron: couldn't imagine. Barack Obama: So so that's fun. Mark Maron: Well, yeah. And and I'm also like, you know, I, you know, I pay it I don't, You know, there was a period where I was a little more attentive politically where I, Barack Obama: you Mark Maron: know, I ran the country from my couch for a couple years. Barack Obama: A lot of people do. Yeah. I hear from them all the time. You idiot. Why why aren't you doing it this way? Yeah. Mark Maron: Yeah. I heard from them this morning. I I got I got nothing but emails from people telling me what I gotta say to you. Yeah. But but I also know that, you you know, given the events So, of Wednesday that you, you know, you had to put a lot in check. You you you lost someone you knew, and and and I'm sorry for your loss, and it and it it was a horrible thing. And and I appreciate you making the trip. You know, I I know that that that that must be difficult to compartmentalize that. And this is Friday, and this is gonna go up Monday. And in terms of that, not to shift the conversation too far away from the candid, I mean, in your mind, You you know, what happens now? Because this is gonna go up Monday, and this is Friday. So in relation to that event Barack Obama: Well, look. They have Captured, the suspect. Yeah. We've got a legal system that's gonna work, I think, the way it's Supposed to. Yeah. People are paying a lot of attention to it. The the point I made in in the immediate aftermath The the killing on on Thursday, yeah, was that I've I've done this way too often. Mark Maron: Yes. Barack Obama: During the course of my presidency, it feels as if a couple times a year Yeah. I end up having to speak to the country and to speak to a particular community about A devastating loss. And, you know, the the grieving that The country feels is real. The sympathy, obviously, the prioritizing, comforting the families Mhmm. All that's important. But I think part of the point that I wanted to make was that, it's not enough just to feel bad. There are actions that could be taken to make events like this less likely. And One of those actions we could take, would be to enhance some basic common sense gun safety laws That, by the way, the majority of gun owners support Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: This is unique to our country. Yeah. There there there's there's no other advanced nation on Earth that tolerates Multiple shootings on a regular basis and considers it Normal. And to some degree, that's what's happened in this country. It's become something that we Expect. The framing is it's a crazy person. It's a crazy person. You can't help it. But the truth of the matter is is that other this doesn't happen with this kind of frequency in other countries. When You had a mass killing. Yeah. I think I think it was in Tasmania about twenty five years ago. It was just So shocking to the system, the entire country said, well, we're we're gonna completely change our gun laws. And they did. And it hasn't happened sense. Mark Maron: Well and and also with the when you came into office, I I mean, I know gun owners. I grew up in New Mexico. My my father was a gun owner. That there was this tremendous fear, like, The the the guns are all they're they're gonna come for our guns, and and that is a common refrain. Barack Obama: Well, in fact, Typically, right after Newtown happened, for example Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: Gun sales shot up. Yeah. And because ammunition, shot up. And and and each time that these events occur ironically, Gun manufacturers make out like bandits. Partly because of this fear that's churned up that, You know, the federal government and the black helicopters are all coming to get your guns. Yeah. Part of my argument is that It is important for folks to understand how hunting and sportsmanship around firearms is really important to a lot of people. Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: And it's part of how they grew up, part of The bonding they had with their dad. Yep. You know, it evokes all kinds of memories, and traditions, and and I think you have to be respectful of Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: The question is just, is there a way of accommodating that, legitimate Set of traditions with some common sense stuff that prevents a twenty one year old who, is angry about something or or confused about something or is racist or is, you know, deranged Yeah. From from going into a gun store and, suddenly it's packing. Yeah. And can do enormous Harm. And and that is not something that we have ever fully come to terms with. And, you know, unfortunately, the grip of the NRA On Congress is extremely strong. I don't foresee, any legislative action being taken in this Congress, And I don't foresee any real action being taken until the American public feels a sufficient sense of urgency, and they say to themselves, This is not normal. This is something that we can change and we're gonna change it. And if you don't have that kind of public and voter pressure, Then, it's not gonna change from the inside. Mark Maron: So you have you still have faith in the American public, And American democracy and momentum and just to be clear, there are no black helicopters. Correct? There are. Okay. Oh, god. Barack Obama: There are black helicopters, but we generally We don't deploy them. Okay. Mark Maron: Okay. Alright. So Barack Obama: we we deploy them against Bin Laden, for example, but we generally don't deploy them on, US soil. Right. Mark Maron: Yeah. But but because, like, I asked myself, and when when I knew I was talking to you, and I see somebody who who symbolically, you know, that that Horrible event. Wednesday, it had an agenda. It was a symbolic event. He knew where he was doing that. Yeah. He knew what it meant. And now he's confessed to saying he wanted to start a race war. So In my mind, it's like, where do you find hope of of that ever stopping? And it is in the people. Barack Obama: It's in the people. And and I tell you, people ask me, what's What's the thing you've learned most as president? Yeah. Right. And I I tell him, I don't know that this is something I learned, but it is something that has been confirmed. The American people are overwhelmingly good, decent, Generous people. And and I I can say that because I meet a lot of people. And during this journey that you take Mhmm. From the time you Start running for president to six and a half years in being president. You see folks from all walks of life. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: You don't just you don't just talk to your supporters. You you meet people who, you know, don't like you, didn't vote for you. You you go to areas That, are, you know, in in today's parlance, you know, red states is and and, Are considered very conservative, and you talk to people. And everybody that I meet believes in A lot of the same things. They they believe in some of those same virtues I was talking about that my mom taught me. They they believe in and family and community and and looking out for one another. They very rarely Think in terms of, well, that's a Republican, so I don't like that person, or that's a Democrat, I don't like that person. That that that's not how folks organize their lives. So so that always gives me hope, and that always gives me confidence when I see how Americans interact with each other on a day to day basis. The problem is is that there's this big gap between who we are as a people, and How our politics expresses itself. And part of that has to do with gerrymandering, and Super packs and lobbyists and a media that is so splintered now that We're not in a common conversation. And the fact that, you know, if you watch Fox News, you inhabit a completely different World with different facts. Even if you read New York Times. Mark Maron: Right. You can cherry pick your information to fit your ideology. Barack Obama: And then you and and that becomes self reinforcing. Right. And there is a profit both for politicians and for, news outlets in simplifying and And polarizing, and and so all those things have combined to make our Our political, institutions detached from how people live on a day to day basis. And that's part of why people get so And they get so cynical, but ironically you get a negative feedback loop right when people start thinking What's happening in Washington is so distant from how I see things that I'm not even gonna bother to vote. Or or even listen. Or I'm not even gonna bother Right. And as a consequence then, the public withdraws and, you get An even worse, political gridlock and and and, polarization. So so so the issue is not the American people. That's where my Faith is. The the question is how do we build institutions and connections that allow The goodness, decency, common sense, ordinary folks to express itself in the decisions that are made about how the country moves Mark Maron: Well, it's interesting that people have lost faith, and and and I think what you're speaking to is is I had this weird experience with a guy. You know, I did a show in Cleveland, and then the next Theater over, it was Dennis Miller and, and, and O'Reilly. Right. And after the show, I was talking to a guy, you know, He's a a Vietnam vet, and he and he he we were just sitting outside smoking a cigar. He had a cigarette, and he was from the south. And he, Barack Obama: he said he just went Mark Maron: and saw the show, but I didn't tell him who I was. And I didn't tell him I didn't discuss politics at all. I just let that go. Right. And I knew that in that moment, if I brought up politics, There would be there would be nothing but tension. Right. Nothing but fighting. Right. And, and I didn't wanna do it, but because I didn't, you know, I got to know who that guy was. Right. It's like, I think some of what you're speaking to is, like, I think you're right about, most most Americans are decent people with these core values. But if you get two or three of them With the same ideology, you know, feeding a certain amount of hate on either side, then the individual does not come through. Barack Obama: I think that's right. And and and that's why That's why I think so many people shy away from politics because they know, look, if I'm if I'm going to my kids soccer game, And I'm just with a bunch of dads. Yeah. And we're talking about sports. Yeah. And we're talking about housing prices. And We're we're just talking about how we're living our lives. Then everybody's finding all kinds of commonalities. And and yet the minute you introduce Republican, Democrat, Obama Yeah. Bush, Suddenly, people start breaking apart. And the question then becomes, how do you break out of That pattern. And that's something I've spent a lot of time with over the last six and a half years. I spent a lot of time just on policy and trying to get stuff right. You know, how do I make sure that we create more jobs? How do we make sure that, when I first came in, how do I prevent another great depression? How do I make sure folks get health care? But I Increasingly, I've spent my time thinking About how do I try to break out of these old patterns Yeah. That, Our politics has fallen into, which is part of the reason why I'm here. I mean, I'll be honest with you. One of the things that I've had conversations with My communications team Yeah. Is is how do we talk to folks who aren't already so dug in into A particular way of thinking about politics that, we can create more space for people to have a normal, ordinary conversation. And one in which, you know, the lines aren't as clearly drawn black and white. And it it's not this, You know, battle in a in a steel cage, between, one side and another. Mark Maron: Well, I became sort of disillusioned. I mean, I used To, you know, do, left wing talk radio, and and I realized that there was a lot of things I was naive about, you know, and about, you know, just exactly how the government worked. Barack Obama: Yeah. Mark Maron: And then there, you know, there were certain, you know, Trajectories around war Yeah. And around education and around, you know, the sort of, you know, corporate occupation of the American government. You know, you start to have those conversations, and it becomes very hard to deny that some of that is true. Yeah. And and, you know, I imagine, You know, from what I see in in thinking about your presidency and and and thinking about you is that there is an element, and and I don't know if this will be insulting to you. There's an element of the presidency that is sort of middle management. Yeah. And and that it seems to me that You knew going in what you were up against, because I've I've read your early work, and you knew how it laid out. Right. You knew how capitalism worked. Right. You knew how you you knew that there was no know, you can't go in going like, you know, we can't live in a white man's world. We those color lines had to be, you know, scrapped. Right. But also you knew the realities of business. Right. So it seems to me that in in in thinking about that middle management frame, that you're what you knew you the game you had to play, but you knew that you had To I I think left to its own devices, sadly, the government is only gonna cede so much to poor people. Barack Obama: Well, you know what? Here here's another way of putting it. Okay. But but, I think you're onto something. You know, when I ran in two thousand and eight Yeah. You know, there there were those posters out there, hope. Mark Maron: Yeah. Right? Okay. Barack Obama: And change. Yeah. And and those are capturing Aspirations about where we should be going. Mark Maron: Yeah. A Barack Obama: society that's more just. Uh-huh. A society that's more equal. A society in which, The the dignity of every individual is, respected. Mhmm. A society of tolerance. Yeah. A society of opportunity. And the question then is how do you operationalize those abstract Concepts into something really concrete. You know, how do we get somebody a job? How do we improve a school? How do we, Make sure that, everybody gets decent health care. As soon as you start talking about Specifics, then the world's complicated. Yeah. And there are choices that you have to make. And It turns out that the trajectory of progress Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: Always happens in fits and starts. And you've got these big legacy systems that you have to wrestle with, and you have to Balance, what you want and where you're going with what is and what has been. And I, One of the interesting things is the conversations I have with supporters who will Say to me, you know, we think you're a great guy. You've done some good things, but I'm so disappointed with x because x didn't happen exactly the way I wanted it. And what I have to explain to them is that progress in a democracy Yeah. Is never instantaneous, and it's always partial. And and you can't get Cynical or frustrated because you didn't get all the way there immediately. So, you know, During the healthcare debate, there are a lot of people who just wanted a single payer plan. Right. Right? Yeah. And as I said before, if I were designing a system from scratch? That would probably make more sense. We're the only country on Earth that not the only country on Earth, but we're one of the few countries that has this weird amalgam Of private sector and Medicare and sort of a patchwork system, hugely inefficient. We spend more than any of the other advanced countries. Our outcomes aren't necessarily better. But the notion that we were just gonna scrap The existing healthcare system, which is a sixth of our economy and employs millions of people, and that wasn't gonna happen. Right. So the question is, alright, Given to where we're starting now, how do we move as best we can in the right direction? Five years later, We've got millions of people who have health care that didn't have it before. We have the lowest uninsured rate that has ever been recorded. But for a lot of people, they're looking at it and saying, well, we didn't get everything we wanted. For me, what I say to myself is, for those millions of people, many of whom write to me and say, you know, you saved my life, That's democracy working. That's that's government working. You know, the same is true when it comes to, How we think about the the fight against terrorism. You know, we ended two wars, but I always said from the start That there really are people out there who would have no compunction about just blowing up an entire neighborhood Of Americans, innocent men, women, and children Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: For ideological reasons. We have to deal with that. And that then means that We do have to be able to identify those networks. We do have to, when we can Find those folks. Yeah. Try to prevent them from doing what they're doing. And so for the last six and a half years, what I've tried is to build up a legal structure that is consistent with our values and due process, build up a intelligence System that is consistent with our civil liberties. Yeah. And sometimes my supporters will write and say, you know, There's some stuff here that you're doing that that's just like Bush. And what I explained to them is the problems with the excesses of Our counterterrorism approach after nine eleven, were real, and waterboarding and torture and renditions. Right. We stopped. But that doesn't mean that we don't have real problems out there, and that there aren't balances that we've got to strike and figure out. And it's complicated. And we've gotta, be mindful that, you know, whatever abstract views you have about drones or That you have about, intelligence gathering, that if you were sitting there in the situation room, you'd realize that You've got some responsibilities and you've got some choices to make. And it's not all Clear cut. Clear cut. The way oftentimes it gets presented. So so I guess to to go to the point you were making earlier, that that's where yeah, it's it's like middle management. Sometimes your job is just to make stuff work. Sometimes the task of government is to make incremental improvements, Or try to steer the ocean liner two degrees north or south, so that ten years from now suddenly we're in a very different place than we were but at the time Mark Maron: that may Barack Obama: that may not but but but at the moment People may feel like we need a fifty degree turn. We we don't need a two degree turn. Mhmm. And you say, well, if I turn fifty degrees, the the whole ship turn. Mark Maron: They they they weren't gonna let you turn fifty degrees. Barack Obama: And and and you you can't turn fifty degrees. The, in the Mark Maron: shot Not to the system. Barack Obama: And and it's not just because of, You know, corporate lobbyists, it's not just because of, big money. It's because Societies don't turn fifty degrees. Democracies certainly don't turn fifty degrees. They And And that's been true on issues of race, that's been true on issues of the environment, that's true on issues of discrimination. As long They're turning in the right direction Right. And we're making progress, then, you know, government is working sort of the way it's supposed to. But very optimistic of you and I'm an optimistic guy. Mark Maron: I am. No. But I I mean, like, just the way you're you you know, because I don't know how you deal from day to day. I was panicking all morning. You know, I I don't imagine you were flying in here on the chopper thinking, like, you know, I I am nervous about Mark. Barack Obama: No. I wasn't. Okay. Well, that's Good. That makes That would be a problem. Mark Maron: It would be a problem. Barack Obama: If the president was feeling stressed about it. That was coming to my garage. Coming to garage. Mark Maron: But you deal with that stuff Barack Obama: All the podcast. Mark Maron: All the time. I mean, like, you know, what you're saying is this incremental progress. But I mean, you had a congress that was, you know, You know, dead set on not giving you anything. Barack Obama: Right. Mark Maron: And and then, you know, the the then it got to a point where they they really even if they wanted to work with you, they couldn't because their That's Barack Obama: not correct. Mark Maron: That's not correct. Barack Obama: The government constituency's all stirred up. Mark Maron: They thought you were Satan. Right. And and so you had that obstacle. Right. And then you're you're coming into, you know, a country that Was depleted. And I just it it it it's fascinating to me that you were able to maintain this hope. And now, again, on Monday, when this post Barack Obama: Right. Mark Maron: The Supreme Court's gonna make a decision Barack Obama: Right. Mark Maron: About your About your health care bill. The health care bill. I mean, that's a huge thing. This is a a a slightly very crazy case. Barack Obama: Yes. Shouldn't shouldn't have been taken, in my view. Mark Maron: But but it could dismantle your your your your big thing, the thing that you gave everybody. Well, well, Barack Obama: a couple of things I'll observe. Number one, and not to get into the weeds on this, but Yeah. First of all, I'm confident we'll win. Okay. Because the law is clearly on our side. Number two, the the case Case at issue is not whether the entire Affordable Care Act is legal. Right. It is a very narrow Statutory interpretation about whether those states that didn't set up state exchanges, but whose people are benefiting from the subsidies under the Affordable Care Act whether they still get those subsidies. If the Supreme Court were to decide against us, five to six million people could lose their health insurance. Immediately. Well, they who knows what they said? But, people in California, for example, where there's a state exchange Yeah. Or New York Right. They wouldn't lose it. Right. All the benefits that have happened for people who already had health insurance, not being able not being discriminated against because they have a pre existing condition, making sure that Women aren't having to pay more for men, than men for insurance. Those things wouldn't go away. But look, Are there frustrations in my job? Yes. On the other hand, I can say Unequivocally, I can answer Ronald Reagan's question unequivocally. Are you better off now than you were four years ago? Right. And the answer is on every economic measure, just about you are. Right. And so when I take, an unemployment rate from ten percent down to five point five percent, When I drive the uninsured rate to the lowest it's ever been, when I, Store people's four zero one k's when, I make sure that we're doubling clean energy, and We are, reducing our carbon footprint, and high school graduations are the highest they've ever been, and college attendance are the highest they've ever been. Mark Maron: And civil rights elements too. Barack Obama: And and and LGBT rights have been recognized and Solidified in ways that we couldn't even imagine ten years ago. When I look at those things, I can say that In terms of not just managing the government Mhmm. But moving the country forward, we've Had a lot more hits than misses, and we've made a difference in people's lives. And that is ultimately, you know, what you're looking for. You know, when you wake up every day, you say to yourself, are things a little bit better? Yeah. And if you if you take that long view, then you're less Nervous or stressed about the day to day ups and downs and Mhmm. Mark Maron: You Barack Obama: know, what's in political today, or What are my poll numbers doing, or what did such and such say about me? And you kinda just start blocking that stuff out because you're staying focused on, your ultimate destination. Mark Maron: You can just block it out, obviously. Barack Obama: I I have learned not to worry about The day to day and to stay focused on what I need to do, for the American people long term. And and now look, some of it's temperament. I I I always say part of this is just being born in Hawaii. It's really nice. Mark Maron: I was just there. Barack Obama: Yeah. In in Hawaii. Yeah. You feel better. Yeah. I did. So so I I I feel like that fortified me. So that I just, you know, there's a certain element of chill. Mark Maron: You got a Hawaii in the mind? Barack Obama: You got a little Hawaii in the mind. And, and that's part of it. Yeah. Mark Maron: But don't you get furious? I mean, I saw you on TV the other day, and see the anger, and you're you're you're not a you're not a boil over kinda guy, but I could feel it. Yeah. Barack Obama: There are times I I I will tell you. Right after, Sandy Hook, New Newtown Yeah. When twenty six year olds are gunned down and and Congress literally does nothing? Yeah. That may that that that, that's the closest I came To feeling disgusted. I I was pretty disgusted, but but the, you you know, That's that's the exception rather than the rule, in the sense that on most fronts, I've been able to find ways to make progress even in the face of obstruction, even in the face of Resistance even in the face of gridlock. So on climate change, for example Mark Maron: Right. Barack Obama: Congress has not acted. Right. On the other hand, Just through rulemaking, we've been able to double fuel efficiency standards on cars. We are right in the middle of putting together a rule to Reduce carbon pollution from power plants, and we'll we'll get that stuff done. And It would be a lot better. It'd be a lot more helpful if we had some cooperation from congress. And if I didn't have the chairman of The Energy and Environment Committee in the Senate holding up a snowball, as if that was proof that climate change wasn't happening. Right. That would be useful. Mark Maron: So that kind of but but does does the like, because you're a smart guy. You're a results oriented guy. And and and you see yourself as person which you are, and that the stuff that you're talking about should make sense to everybody. And that's the way you approach Right. These these guys who are, like, right. Barack Obama: No. No. I'm I'm I'm a I'm a look, the some some of the some of the the mythology about me about being very professorial and Right. Remove. That stuff is is actually, I think it it has to do with me not schmoozing enough In Washington because I got two kids. Right. And and, and it's true that and I I don't do the cocktail circuit in some of the backside. Mark Maron: You don't play the game in that way. Barack Obama: I I but The truth is though, it is accurate to say that, I believe in reason. Okay. And I and and I believe in facts. Right. And I believe in looking at Something and having a debate and an argument, but trying to drive it towards some Agreed upon set of assumptions about what works and what doesn't. So if you want to argue with me That, it's better off if we cut taxes for millionaires and billionaires. I don't mind you putting that forward as an argument, but If I then present to you a set of facts that shows that that does not result in Higher economic growth. But in fact, when we have a more equitable tax system, That's when everybody's benefiting, and that's when we grow. And I can show you charts decade by decade Of when we grew fastest and what worked, and the fact that your theories generally have not worked. Yeah. My expectation is at some point, Yeah. You say, okay. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: You know, that makes sense. That that makes sense to me. Right. And and that's where, there are times Where it is frustrating because the public has Look, it's hard for the public to follow this stuff. Yeah. Not because because they don't get it, but because they got their lives to lead. You know, you're working, you're trying to get your kids to school. Mark Maron: They just wanna be okay. They want things to Barack Obama: be okay. They're not gonna be able to follow the intricacies of the health care debate. So if somebody's going around saying death panels Mark Maron: Yeah. They'll lock in. Barack Obama: You know, they sort of think, Mark Maron: Well, I I Barack Obama: don't like the idea of death panels. That doesn't sound good. And and so one of the challenges that, I've had And to adapt to. And I think this is where hopefully I've gotten better as present because Yeah. You know, you you learn as you go along. Is to recognize that It's not enough just to be right or to get the policy right. It's also important to be able to communicate it in a way that is digestible, Easily enough for the public that you can move the needle of public opinion. And sometimes it's just a matter of, you know, you being able to get enough Folks in congress who share your views to have the votes to get stuff done. And and you can talk all you want, but you're not gonna change the other side's mind, and you just have to ahead and see if you can move forward, because they are resistant to, in some cases, rational fact based arguments. Mark Maron: So, Alright. You've you've gotten an amazing amount of stuff done. And and, in in in a time in the last year, you got some big stuff done where people didn't think you were gonna get anything done. And now, this this horrible thing happens Wednesday, and and, you know, you have, You know, these police actions in Baltimore and Ferguson. I mean, where you know, coming from where you came from Barack Obama: Right. Mark Maron: And and, you know, trying to define yourself In terms of, the African American community Right. In in in terms of, racial relations, where where are we with that in terms of when You came in in your mind. Barack Obama: Well, for first of all, I I always tell young people in particular, Do not say that nothing's changed when it comes to race in America unless you live through Being a black man in the nineteen fifties or sixties Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: Or seventies, it is Incontrovertible that race relations have improved significantly during my lifetime in yours, And that opportunities have opened up, and that attitudes have changed. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: That that is a fact. What is also true is that the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, Discrimination in almost every institution of our lives, you know, that casts a long shadow. And that's still part of our DNA that's that's passed on. We're not cured of it. Racism. Racism. We are not cured of. Clearly. And and and it's not just a matter of, it it not being polite to say nigger in public, that's not the measure of whether racism still exists It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have societies don't Overnight completely erase everything that happened two to three hundred years prior. And so what I tried to describe Tribe in in the Selma speech, that I gave commemorating the march there, was, again, a notion that Progress is real, and we have to take hope from that progress. But what is also real is that the march isn't over, And the work is not yet completed. And then our job is to try in very concrete ways To figure out what more can we do. So let's take the example of police practices. Cops have a really tough job. Yep. And part of the reason cops have a tough job particularly in big cities is that there are communities that are Poor are systematically locked out of opportunity, that suffer from legacies of discrimination that have been built up over generations, And we send cops in there basically to say, keep those folks, from making too much trouble. But how Mark Maron: do we fix what you just said? Barack Obama: Right. Well, I'm gonna get to that. So so the point is though, that we can break it down out into these component parts, and we can say number one, there's specific ways that we can make police community relations better and police more accountable. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: And so we put together a task force with police officers and young people, including some of the folks who led the Ferguson marches. Mhmm. And surprisingly, came up with a consensus of things that could be done that would make things better. Alright. So let's implement those. Now, in the meantime, what are we doing to help Those lowest income communities. We know that, for example, early childhood education works. That is one way to break The legacy of racism and poverty, if a three year old, Four year old kid is in an environment of love, and is getting a good meal Right. And has a teacher that's trained in Early childhood development, and is hearing enough words, and is being engaged enough, They can get to where a middle class kid is pretty quickly. Is that happening? It turns out It is. But the problem is Is that it happens spotily. Right? It happens in this community, or this school district, Or this neighborhood, or this outstanding principle is making something happen, or this philanthropist has decided to do something. But what it what Hasn't happened is us making a collective commitment to do it. So, the the point I'm making is is that when you look at How to deal with racism. Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: How to deal with issues of, some of the police, shootings that have been involved. I'm less interested in having an ideological conversation than I am looking at what has worked in the past, and applying it, Flying it and scaling up. What is required is a sense on the part of all of us that What happens to those kids matters to me, even if I never meet them. Because my society is gonna be Sure off. I'm gonna feel better about the the America I live in, and over time, I'm confident that my Children and my grandchildren are gonna live a better life if those kids also have opportunity. That's where we have to feel hopeful. Rather than just say that nothing's changed, we have to say, Wow, we've actually made significant progress over the last fifty years. If we made as much progress Over the next ten years as we have over the last fifty, things would be better. And and and and that's within our grasp. It's it's It's available to us. And and this is where, again, you wanna get to those decent, Well meaning Americans who would agree with that, but when it gets translated into politics, it gets all confused. And and and trying to bridge that gap between, I think, the good impulses of the overwhelming majority of Americans and how our politics expresses itself continues to be the biggest challenge. Mark Maron: What do you do to to to have fun? I mean, like, I I can't imagine what it's like to raise a family in the situation that you're in as president. It must feel sort of insulated. Barack Obama: You know, the, the biggest fun I've had is watching my girls grow up. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: And they are, they are magnificent. Look, Hopefully, every parent feels the way I do about my daughters. Yeah. But I think they are spectacular. And when Michelle and I came in the office, the biggest worry we had was, is this gonna be some weird thing For them? And are they gonna grow up with an attitude? Or are they gonna, think that everybody eats off of China? Right. Right. And, Are they? And it you know, it turns out that they've just become, they're kind, they're thoughtful, they treat everybody with Respect. They, don't have any kind of airs. They're They're confident, but without being cocky. Mhmm. They've got great friends. They've been able to, you know, they're not Stuck in the bubble the same way I am. You know, they go to the mall. They have sleepovers. They go to prom. Malia's starting to drive. You know, they're they're doing great. So my biggest fun has been watching them grow up. Now, unfortunately, they're now hitting the age where They still love me, but they think I'm completely boring. And so they'll come in, pat me on the head, talk to me for ten minutes, and then they're gone all weekend, Right? And they break my heart. And so now I've gotta start thinking, well, what's what's what's gonna replace that fun? Right? But Mark Maron: the one thing you don't have to worry about is, like, why I I hope they don't get lost. Barack Obama: That never happens. Mark Maron: Right. I Barack Obama: mean, what is true you know, sometimes, Malia, for example, as she got older, was starting to chafe a little bit about Secret Service. Uh-huh. And I had to explain to her, sweetie, let me tell you something. If you think that you'd be over at your friend's house until eleven thirty, and then I'd be coming to pick you up, You're crazy. Mark Maron: Right. Barack Obama: So the only reason you're out is because you've got a detail. Otherwise, you'd be home. Because because I I wouldn't be chauffeuring you around. Yeah. So the, you know, there there's a balance of of that stuff. Yeah. I've I've been trying to work out pretty hard just to stay in shape. That that's useful. But it's not you know, I used to play basketball more, but these days, I'm I I've gotten to the point where it's not as much fun because I'm not as good as I used to be, and I get frustrated. Mark Maron: You get what you can't be a because you're a you play for real. Barack Obama: Yeah. I used to be I I I was never great, but I was a I was a good player, and I could play seriously. And now, I'm like one of these old guys who's running around. And, you know, the guys I play with who are all A lot younger. They they sort of pity me and sympathize with me. They they tolerate me, but, you know, they know we all know that a weak link on the on the court, and I don't like being the weak link. Right. Mark Maron: Yeah. And and psychologically, you know, in terms of of of where come from and and and your family. Yeah. You you know, the the revelations that you grew to have about your father over time. And, you know, your do you did you find yourself confronting in yourself the same challenges that your father did with, you know, with, stubbornness, with, you know, dealing with, you know, alcohol and that kinda Stuff. Barack Obama: You know, I I I was I was lucky in that sense. I mean, for for those who are listening who haven't read my book or something, my dad was a tragic figure in a lot of ways. A brilliant man by all accounts Uh-huh. Who sort of took a leap from, a Tiny village in the backwaters of Kenya to suddenly the United States Getting a degree, attending Harvard, and he never managed that leap as well as He could've. And I and and part of the process of me writing the book was was to figure out what happened to him, and and how did he become, who he was. And, you know, he ended up becoming an alcoholic and abusive towards, his, several wives and, and To some degree, a neglectful father. In some ways, because I didn't grow up with him. Yeah. He he was an abstraction to me. Right. That stuff didn't seep into me. You know, my mother And my grandparents, who did raise me, fortified me. Although they were one thing they always did that I thought was wise was they never portrayed a, a negative picture of him. They actually accentuated what was good about him rather than bad, which is an interesting thing. Mark Maron: And you had to go do your own homework. Barack Obama: So I had to go do my own homework, but the point is though that I I didn't end up It was a good myth. Yeah. It was a good myth. And I didn't Internalize a bunch of negative, attitudes about who he was and thereby didn't think that that was who I had to be. So, You know, I had the adolescent rebellion screw up Mhmm. Period that has been well chronicled. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: But it turned out that that a lot of his craziness, I I didn't end up, I didn't end up internalizing it. You know, one one of the things that I always say is, you know, I've said this to Michelle. One of our biggest jobs as parents, because we're all a little bit crazy Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: Is let's see if we can not pass on some of Our craziness to our kids. Right. Mark Maron: That's the challenge. Right? Barack Obama: Yeah. And and let's see if we can break the cycle. Mark Maron: How are you crazy? Barack Obama: Well, for example, Okay. I think that having grown up the way I did without a dad, moving around a lot, my Mom, sometimes gone because of the nature of her work. It was very important to me to Be a good dad. And part of, I think, the attraction to Michelle originally, In addition to her being really good looking and Yeah. And, smart and tough and funny, was She had this opposite experience growing up. I mean, she it it was really leave it to beaver. You know, dad Mhmm. Mom Mhmm. Brother, live in the same place for, you know, her entire childhood, family everywhere. And so so she helped ground me in a way that allowed my kids To have this base for themselves that I never had. Conversely, I think Michelle would be the first to admit that Part of probably her attraction to me was that her living in the same place all her life in this very traditional Since, sometimes made her less adventurous and less open to doing new things. Mhmm. And so she has seen me as a way to instill in our kids this willingness to Take a flyer on something. Try it out. Sure. Do something new. And, you know, so in in that sense, each of us, I think, Have been really mindful about trying to make sure that whatever limitations or gaps we've got, that we're Kinda On the sense. Having having having, the other the other person help, fill those gaps at least for our children. Mark Maron: And and when, Like, we I know we gotta finish up here in a minute or two, but, you know, like, when she goes like, if Michelle says, would would you stop that police? What is she talking about? Barack Obama: Do you like me? Mark Maron: Well, let Barack Obama: let let's Do you like Yeah. I mean, they're being late. Mark Maron: Yeah. Do you do you isolate like, I for some reason, I see you as a guy that's sort of, like, in your head and just sort of, like, you know, will just detach a little bit. Barack Obama: No. No. No. I'm I'm very engaged. That that's not she she she will say stop that in the when we first started dating. And I'd I'd always give myself kind of a Fifteen minute leeway Mark Maron: Right. Barack Obama: Right, in terms of showing up Okay. And and getting this stuff. And partly because Michelle's Dad had multiple sclerosis. Mark Maron: Mhmm. Barack Obama: It's really interesting. I I used to say, you know, why why are you stressing me about, You know, being late. Yeah. I'm just fifteen minutes late, ten minutes late. What's what's the big deal? And then I don't remember how long we were in the relationship when she described how her Dad had to wake up an hour earlier than everybody else because he had multiple sclerosis. Just to put on his shirt and button his own shirt was A big task. Right. And if he want if the family wanted to go see Michelle's brother play basketball, this Before the ADA, the American Disabilities Act. You know, they'd have to get there Early. Mhmm. So that her dad, on crutches, could hobble his way up the stairs to their seat. And that mentality of not wanting to stand out and not wanting to, You know, missed something. Mhmm. Had instilled her, so it was a very emotional thing. You've loaded. Right? Mark Maron: It wasn't just about Barack Obama: being late. Yeah. And and so well, you know, that's one of the Beauties of marriage. Right? Over time, if if it works, it's because you start figuring out you know, the fights you have are never about the fights. It's never about the thing you're fighting about. It's always about something something else. It's about a story. It's about respect. It's about Mark Maron: Something young. Recognition. Barack Obama: Something Yeah. Something Been deep. Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: Yeah. And, you know. Mark Maron: So okay. So I think we did good here. Barack Obama: We I thought I thought a pretty good conversation. Yeah. Pretty Mark Maron: good. What could I what could I have done better? What did you what did I not do? Did you were you expecting something a little lighter? Barack Obama: No. No. No. We we it's just, you know, we we sort of dove in. It it it didn't have that kinda nice sort of, ease into it. So suddenly, we were just Mark Maron: In it. Yeah. Barack Obama: That's kinda like Mark Maron: the way I am. You know? That's what I figured. Barack Obama: I went with it. I rolled with it. Mark Maron: How do you do this? Like, you know, like, you know, you're just able to like, because I I I saw you in Manassas Yeah. The day after your your grandmother passed the day before the election, and you just turned it on. Then the the you know, you're you're you were just doing gigs last night. You're going to Tyler Perry's and Chuck Lorre's doing the thing. You're touring. Yeah. Doing that part of the job. Yeah. I see. You know, the night of, know, I'm a comic. So the night that you knew that they were gonna shoot Ben Lon, you're doing comedy. Barack Obama: That was pretty funny too. Mark Maron: Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, Is there some trick that you can share with us all of how you just sort of focus in on that? Is everything that immediate to you that you can compartmentalize that quickly? Or you just know that you have to Show up and do the job. Barack Obama: Yeah. Look, the, because you're a performer, you know this is this is true. And you you you you're friends with a lot of comics. You like comedy? I love comedy. And, Who are your guys? Well, Pryor Pryor was an early one. And Dick Gregory when he was really Right. You know, on the edge. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? I love all you know, Seinfeld's a whole another different type. Uh-huh. Yeah. Lewis, you know, I know is a buddy of yours I I love. Louis? Yeah. Yeah. I I I think, Louis' terrific. Mark Maron: Uh-huh. Boy. He just made his life. No. No. He just made his life. Barack Obama: He he he he he he is he's wonderful in in a Such a self deprecating, but Yeah. But edgy kinda one. I mean, I and, and and basically good hearted even when he's saying stuff that's pretty Mark Maron: Yeah. Barack Obama: You know? Wrong. Wrong. You know? Yeah. But but but you can there's a goodness about them that comes through. But Look, I think that, I think at the end, what all those guys Understand is the more you do something and the more you You practice it. At a certain point, it becomes second nature. Sure. And and what I've always been impressed about, like, when I I listen to comics talk about comedy Mhmm. Is how much of it is a craft. Right? Oh, yeah. And they're Thinking it through, and it's, and and they have a sense of when it works and when it doesn't. And then the longer you do it, the better your instincts Sorry. Mark Maron: Same with president. Barack Obama: Yeah. Same with president. And and also, I guess the last thing is you lose You lose fear. Mark Maron: That's right. Barack Obama: I I I was talking to somebody the the other day, about Why I actually think, I'm I'm a better president and Would be a better candidate if I were running again than I ever have been. And it's sort of like an athlete. You you might slow down a little bit. You might, not jump as high as you used to, but I know what I'm doing, and I'm fearless. Mark Maron: For For real. You're not pretending to be fearless. Barack Obama: Pretending to be fearless. Mark Maron: That's exactly right. Right. Barack Obama: And and when you get to that point Freedom. Then, you know and and also part of that fearlessness is because you've screwed up enough times Sure. That you know that It's all happened. It's it's all happened. I've I've been through this. Right. I've I've screwed up. Right. I've been in the barrel tumbling down Niagara Falls. Yep. And, and I emerged and I lived. And and that's always, that's such a liberating feeling. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. It's one of the benefits of of age. It almost compensates for the fact that I can't play basketball anymore. Oh, good. Mark Maron: Alright. Well, thank you. Barack Obama: It was great to talk to you. There we good? We're good. That was fun. Mark Maron: I I appreciate it, mister President, it was great. Alright, man. Okay. That Happened. That's it. Amazing. Squarespace has set up a special website for this episode featuring photos and other behind the scenes stuff at mark meets obama dot com. Squarespace. Build it beautiful. I wanna thank everyone at the White House who helped make this happen, especially Shayla Murray and Liz Allen. Also, special thanks to Steve Wilson at iTunes, Lex Fridman, and everyone at Midroll, Rob Walsh at Libsyn, our web guru, Martin Seles, Dane Miller, Liz Drew, Chris Hayes, Jesse Thorn, Colt Cabana, Ashley Barnhill, and my neighbors. Thanks to my team, Olivia Wingate, Kelly Von Balkenberg, David Martin, Frank Capello, Rob Greenwald, and Matt Labeaux. Stefan Lawrence did the artwork for this episode. Nathan Smith designed our logo. John Montagna created our theme music, and Brendan McDonald produces the show. And I'm Marc Maron. Okay. We'll talk later. Boomer lives.